steve,
the thing that you focus on is the visible and the immediate. you also focus on YOUR vindication, not God's. it's clear that you're not getting the picture. i was at Bethel for five years too, and I saw a lot of disturbing things that almost made me question whether this was God's organization or not.
But, what I was reminded of was the scripture, "However, we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the power beyond what is normal may be God's and not that out of ourselves." The Governing Body are earthen vessels. Everyone at Bethel is an earthen vessel - imperfect and affected by their own experiences and thinking. In my situation, I saw overseers behaving in ways that smacked of worldly corporate behaviour. Interestingly, it all got corrected in the most amazing and unexpected ways. I was blown away when it became obvious to me that Jehovah's hand was directing things.
You're writing books and publications and become this "figure" in ex-JW circles. After Bethel, I struggled with my flesh and I'd left the truth for about 15 years but I didn't announce to people that I was a JW or make a deal about it. Either you leave it and move on with your life and live like the world or live the truth, and, excuse my french, shut the fuck up. This hanging on business of whining about how you were dealt a bad hand, what are you a fifth grader who got beat up by bullies at school?
And, no matter how much you want to cry and moan, be a stick in the side of the remnant, you're making yourself an unwitting (or knowing) part of Bible prophecy as those who oppose the remnant in the time of the end. Are you comfortable with that? Are you okay with it? I wouldn't be. You ARE a part the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, but not in the way you might like. Think about it.
john
Hi John,
Thanks for taking the time to write.
I can understand where you're coming from: stuck in the middle between the WT world and the real world. I was there for some time myself after I left. It can be confusing.
Let me attempt to explain to you why I won't "shut-up" and how people who speak out may not always be dismissed as simply "whiners" and "moaners" and "persecuters" and all or the other labels the WT has taught you to call us.
You say that you "left the truth" at one point, and that one should either "live the truth" or "live like the world" and forget about it. But there's another option. I never left the truth. I left the WT in order to remain loyal to truth.
If you thought that the relating of my experience was some sort of "vindication", then I think you're the one "not getting the picture." It's not at all about me. That's what the factory committee tried to do: turn it back on me -- it's what you're trying to do as well (old habits from the WT die hard.) I am not some "figure in ex-JW circles". I've never met another ex-JW in my life (outside of my brother and sister). Believe me: I have not made any sort of a name for myself by admitting that I once was a deluded member of a cult!
It's about this: the WT lied, covered up its lies, and then (here's where my experience comes into play) they refused to do anything about it when one of their faithful followers asked them about it [other than call that follower evil for having broached the subject]. What's important here is not my actions or subsequent actions: what we want to focus on is the group that calls themselves the "faithful and discreet slave" and claims sole responsibility for spreading "the truth" throughout the world. It seems to me that such a group (acting in their official capacity) would not be knowingly spreading lies. A group that did engage in such activities for decades would not qualify for the titles they've given themselves; their actions contradict their claims. So, the only reason my experience matters or is of any importance to anyone is that it completes "the picture": we have their lies and cover-ups in black-and-white in their publications for all to see. But what if they were unaware of this? What if the current GB would make it right if they knew? Well, that's what I asked them to do, in person, when I was at Bethel. Their answer is the final nail in their coffin.
The WT has this ridiculously puny defense for themselves: "We're earthen vessels: we're not perfect." And, anyone who points out where they've gone way beyond what that excuse might pardon, is called an apostate "persecutor". Then they claim that the existence of such "persecutors" proves that they're "Jesus' brothers", "being persecuted for righteousness"! But hasn't the WT expended untold tons of ink attacking the mistakes of "Christendom"? Hasn't the WT stated that one must examine one's religion? Well, then they must allow us to examine their religion unless they are hypocrites. I'm sure they'd like to criticize other religions to their heart's content, and stifle all honest criticism of themselves, but does that seem honest or fair to you?
If they were really "God's organization on Earth" wouldn't they at least be honest on the whole? I'm not talking about idividuals. Yes, we all acknowledge individual imperfection. But it's an excuse they try to apply to the entire organization engaged in decades of lies and cover-ups and idiotic, sometimes fatal doctrines!
I have not seen Jehovah or anyone else correct some of the worst faults of the organization. The WT has lied. If you've really read my writings you've seen the proof of this. More importantly, they have covered-up those lies, and they have refused to do anything to rectify that. Is that what they call being "faithful"? When they said vaccinations were wrong and organ transplants were "cannibalism" and "against God's law" and their trusting followers died because of that -- is that what they call being "discreet" and "feeding the faithful meat in due season"?
Today they continue to ban blood transfusions, even boasting about the children whose lives have been lost due to this absurd doctrine. As long as they continue to do this, I will continue to speak out against them, because everyone who is warned away from the WT is a potential life saved.
When they shut-up, then I will too.
Until then, I am much more than "okay with" speaking out against them. Of course I don't believe they are "the remnant". The only prophecy that they may ever have a part in fulfilling is the one regarding false prophets misleading many.
--Steve
who lied? people? probably. i'm not denying that what happened to you didn't happen. it's just that what you talk about ISN'T systematic. it's occasional. the Biblical truth that we're taught is true no matter if people who are supposed to uphold it aren't being true.
there were faithful israelites in ancient israel who might spend their ENTIRE lifetime between the reign of two unrighteous kings who supported baal worship and persecuted righteous israelites. did that mean that the nation wasn't God's chosen nation? you may have suffered many things from many people. where you err is thinking that this means that God isn't with the organization. people are made of clay. They are "earthenvessels" who are affected by their own imperfect thinking and backgrounds. Does that mean that God isn't with them? To the contrary, because they imperfect and often err, it becomes a glory to God that he can use such flawed people and STILL get his work done.
Being on the internet, writing multiple books and selling them....you ARE a figure in ex-JW circles, whether it by cyberspace or real space. you promote yourself and your opinions in an effort to convince others that they are wrong to trust the JW organization. If you aren't making a name for yourself, then take down your website. Otherwise, your actions belie your claim.
As far as lying and covering up lies...Jehovah will judge them. Can you leave it to Him and continue doing what's right? Who appointed you as the prophet Jeremiah to call down evil upon the unrighteous "kings" of our day? You focus on exposing their sin and NOT on your own righteousness and faith in God's ability to right what is wrong, whether it's now or when judgement day comes. What are you doing about your dedication and service to Jehovah? Are you preaching the good news as commanded? Are you working out your faith by being obedient to his commandments? What are you doing?
I'm not denying what you experienced. I can imagine that whatever it was, it must have been extremely traumatic, enough to make you feel so angry that you have written and expounded and spent countless hours and days and years on this topic. When is enough? Don't you think that it's time to let go at some point? Let Jehovah take care of it. If you believe the truth as you said it, then wait on Jehovah and let him work it out.
What's to gain if you lose your life in this epic time we live in? You might win this battle, this skirmish of thoughts and words, but what are you really gaining? I just re-read your comments and you say that you haven't left the "truth," but then mention that you haven't seen Jehovah take care of things. That, in itself, is your admission that you don't have faith in Jehovah's hand.
When the prophets were warning the people of Israel of Jerusalem's destruction by Babylon prior to being taken into captivity by Nebuchadnezzar, the priests said, "Jehovah will not do good. Jehovah will not do bad." Basically, they didn't believe that Jehovah would act for them, good or bad. But, he did allow his nation to fall into captivity for their unfaithfulness.
If we are simply here on the basis that we live to 80 years and die, and everything has to be worked out in our own lifetime, then we're just sunk. The point is that in the context of eternity, whatever small injustice that you and i suffer from those who profess to represent the Most High or at the hands of other less benevolent forces, it's TEMPORARY.
I know that you can't be happy, being stuck in that position you are. You're like a record that keeps skipping back to the same recording, over and over again. Don't you want to just finish the record and move onto the next song?
john
John,
Well, it seems you have some preconceived notions about me not having "moved on." Let me asure you that such assumptions are incorrect. I have long since moved on, and I've not regreted it for a moment. What you are reading on my website was mostly written many years ago. I had put the WT behind me until the advent of the Internet, when I saw it as an avenue to let people know the truth about the organization and the Bible, etc. I certainly don't waste my time worrying about religion anymore (or reading Watchtowers and Awakes). But, every once in a while I get a notion about writing something that might help someone to see the truth, and then I may update the site.
I don't do it to "make a name for myself" -- which it certainly hasn't done: Falling in Truth has sold less than 50 copies, the other books only a handful. I don't do it to make money -- the most important of my books are available for free online. I do it to save people the anguish of still thinking it's God's organization once they've been disfellowshipped, or disassociated themselves. I do it to warn people who might be getting sucked into it. I do it to save lives and people's sanity.
Some might argue that responding to people who write to me is a waste of time, but I feel that if people such as you take the time to write to me, then there may be some glimmer of hope to rescue them out of their religious bondage. Or, if it doesn't help them directly, it may help others in a similar situation (by sharing the correspondence on the site.) I feel that to ignore them would be remiss on my part. However, after I've made known to them what I know, then it's up to them to decide what to do with that information. I can clarify some points, but beyond that I have little hope to break through the brainwashing. My site is usually only helpful to those with one foot already out the door, or who have only put one foot in thus far. The rest are too deeply entrenched: they just go on autopilot to defend the organization no matter what logical and moral hoops they must jump through to do so (without realizing that that's what they're doing).
Once you tire of this conversation (or I do) I promise I won't give the WT another thought until and unless someone else comes along who wishes to discuss it.
I can say "I haven't left the truth" AND that "I haven't seen Jehovah take care of things" because that IS the truth: he hasn't. The WT continues to manipulate people, it continues to cover up its lies, it continues to let children die rather that receive life-saving medical care. If you have faith that Jehovah would not allow children to die for a stupid misinterpretation of his "Word" then you have to reach the inescapable conclusion that Jehovah is not guiding an organization that does in fact allow this to happen.
If the organization has so many things wrong with it, then how can you hold that they are the "one true religion"? If God was guiding them even a little bit, and even if they were imperfect, would he allow "his people" to die for mistaken beliefs promulgated by "his prophet"? When the WT proclaimed (in the 60's) that it was against God's law to have an organ transplant, where did that idea come from? Was it from God? No other regligion that I know of -- and certainly no secular organization -- denied transplants to their members. So, who had the truth on this subject at that time? The WT or the "world"? Whose members died for lack of the truth on this subject: the WT or the "world"?
According to the Bible, God doesn't change his mind. Yet, some years later, the WT said that transplants weren't against God's law. Okay, pull out the old "the light gets brighter" excuse. But, how come the light was shining brightly everywhere else throughout the world long before it dawned on the only organization in the world supposedly being led by God?
The same can be said for vaccinations.
The same can be said for blood-transfusions (though "God's organization" has yet to see the light on this.)
If their laws: "thou shalt not have a transplant" and "thou shalt not have a vaccination" were never God's laws, then where did they get the idea that they were God's laws? Not from God. Then where? From their own imaginations, which they must've mistaken for God's guidance.
If these men can't tell the difference between God's guidance and their own imaginations, then how can we ever trust them? How do we know that they haven't been imagining his guidance all along? Especially since they've changed their minds so many times and have made so many false predictions!
Such leadership the world can live without. (A pun with no humor involved.)
To claim to be God's mouthpiece -- "God's prophet" on Earth -- is an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. But instead of any evidence to back up such a claim we see them leading people astray: causing unecessary death to their members due to their evidently not knowing what God's guidance even feels like!
If they don't know what God's guidance feels like, then they must have never felt it: which means they've never been guided by God.
"If we were following a man undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now; But with God there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from God must be like its author. A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. "New light" never extinguishes older "light," but adds to it... "
(Watch Tower, Feb, 1881, p.3)
Russell said it, and the organization has since lived it with their countless reversals.
Adding eternity into the mix doesn't help. What's wrong is wrong. A lie is still a lie. Children have still died for the deluded imaginings of this organization. I will not wait for some imaginary God or eternity to make it right; neither ever COULD make such things right. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to remain silent (or as you so eloquently put it: to "shut up".) In my own small way, I will not remain silent in the face of such injustice.
You say that the "biblical truths are still true even if the men who taught them are not." But I've just given you three examples of their "truths" which are NOT true (two of which they now admit to, and one they still cling to.) My site offers evidence of many more. So I don't think your stance is tenable. You should also know that just because something is in the Bible, that does not make it true. I've written an entire book on that subject (also available free online).
You ask what I'm doing. I'm volunteering: donating blood platelets, transcribing school textbooks into braille for the blind, working with underprivileged children, ocassionally tutoring high-school kids... I'm learning. I'm loving. I'm living my life. And, yes: I fully expect to lose it at some point (whether or not this is an "epic time" we're living in.) What I will have gained is the knowledge that I tried to do the right thing and remained loyal to truth wherever it may have led.
I wish the same for you.
--Steve
Steve,
it continues to let children die rather that receive life-saving medical care.
You haven't kept up on all the medical knowledge have you? There are bloodless surgery centers sprouting up all over the place. Do a google search on the term "bloodless surgery" and you'll find organizations that advancing this technology like no other. Most of them, when discussing how this movement even began, mention that it was because they were forced to treat Jehovah's Witnesses who wouldn't accept blood. It's come to the point where, because of advanced technology, they can do open heart surgeries that are bloodless, let alone save children whose lives are endangered.
When the WT proclaimed (in the 60's) that it was against God's law to have an organ transplant, where did that idea come from? Was it from God? No other regligion that I know of -- and certainly no secular organization -- denied transplants to their members
You're quibbling about the "icing" on the cake. How does this fact affect the issue of the ransom? It doesn't. How does this fact affect the need for Jehovah's name to be vindicated? It doesn't. Basic Bible truths and principles are unaffected by some misunderstanding and misinterpretation. Can we say that some guy in New York, some Bethelite who thought more of himself decided to condemn organ transplants and make rules about things that fall into the realm personal conscience matters? Probably. But, how does that affect basic issues of faith and beliefs in the promises that the Bible and God make for us? It doesn't.
If the organization has so many things wrong with it, then how can you hold that they are the "one true religion"?
You can go on and on about specifics that seem to point to a viewpoint that promulgates distrust and disbelief. But, how different are you from most people who distrust organizations set up by humans? Your rhetoric is HARDLY revolutionary. There are so many things wrong with the WT organization because it's run by imperfect humans who do stupid things at times and who are influenced by their backgrounds. For example, a good friend of mine who was my roommate at Bethel had the opportunity to serve at the branch in Mozambique. He said that inasmuch as there's less prejudice amongst the Witnesses, there's still an underlying, deep mistrust between blacks and whites that is obvious that only being in a world free from Satan's influence that will change that. If you wanted to you, you could point to that and say, "How can prejudice exist in an organization that supposedly represents God?" But, each country and portion of the world is affected by their own, imperfect, failed, human influences. If you're seeking perfection in a human enterprise, you're asking for too much. This isn't the new system. I've met the most ignorant elders in my life. When I was at Bethel there were Bethel elders who seemed more worldly than worldly people I knew. But, once again, the big picture. Individuals who fail...but somehow the preaching work is getting done.
Listen, if the greatest mark of success or failure is in whether people are responding to the preaching work, in numbers, what do the numbers say? Do you think that everyone is so deluded?
Steve, I'm sorry you lost faith in the organization. As I've said before, I can understand why you might do so. But, aside from all the "milk" that you talk about as being evidence of the corruption and deception, it doesn't affect the "solid food," the strong scriptural doctrines regarding the oneness of Jehovah as the only true God. The fact that he isn't a trinity. The fact that there isn't a hell. The fact that he has a purpose. The fact that he requires obedience of us. The fact that his name needs to be sanctified. The fact that we have a hope for the future based on our faith in Jesus' ransom. None of what you wrote has ANY affect on these solid and basic truths. NONE AT ALL.
I did want to mention however, that I'm glad that you are doing things that are positive and giving back to the community. I think that's a healthy thing to do and definitely reflects that you are someone who inherently cares about people and want to do good. I also feel that you genuinely feel that the WT organization is misleading people and have come to that conclusion based on your own negative and traumatic experiences.
But, I also think that the overseers who handled your situation made some serious mistakes in judgment and reflected a kind of godlessness that hurt you and contributed to your turning away. I can see how something like that can make someone react the way that you have. When I came across such attitudes from people who professed to serve God, I almost came to that same conclusion. It was shocking and extremely troubling.
At one point when I was inactive, I was in college in Providence and decided to try to return to serving Jehovah. I went to a body of elders in a rural congregation in Massachusetts and confessed my sins. Interestingly, though they accepted the fact that I sinned, they didn't accept the fact that I was repentant, which seemed like selective reasoning. In fact, they disfellowshipped me. So, basically, I wasn't even a member of the congregation and they disfellowshipped me..... I was like...what gives? At a low point in my despair, I called a brother I'd known in Bethel who was an elder and in the writing department. I told him about my situation and he said to me that basically, I had to help them. I was like, "THEY wrongly disfellowship me and then I'm supposed to help them??" But, what he said made sense. As imperfect, limited humans, they saw me as a stranger that had come into their midst and who they didn't trust. This was a insular, rural congregation and I was this strange creature that showed up on their doorstep that they didn't know what to do with. I had to do a double take and realize this fact. I had to take into consideration the realities of life, not the "it's supposed to be like..." It took me calling them over and over and over to get them to deal with me. I wouldn't give up, and eventually they saw my conviction and helped me. But, I used to take long walks talking to Jehovah, praying to him and saying, "these men, they SUCK as elders. they suck big time...." But, that doesn't make this organization any less the one chosen by God.
Steve there ARE going to be injustices and inequalities and wrongs. That's a given. Hopefully, for the most part the congregation can be a haven for those seeking to serve God. But, in some cases it may not. My parents were persecuted wrongly by fellow believers for YEARS. They were in congregations where corrupt elders sought to malign my father and remove him as an elder because of jealousy. I've seen a lot of stuff over the years and experienced just as much myself. But, the point is that imperfect humans will continue to do so.
I have seen Jehovah's hand make things right. I've experienced it personally. I have firm faith in God's ability to make things right, even for you.
Take care,
John
John:
What's relevant here is not that there are today some alternatives to blood available to some people in some circumstances. We could argue about how available the latest technology is in third-world countries compared to simple blood transfusions, etc.
We could also argue about the need for specific parts of blood such as platelets (which I'm donating as I write: typing this to you with one hand). There is a whiteboard here at the local Red Cross with a list of people whose lives are being saved by the platelets and whole blood being donated. They range in ages from infants to the elderly, and are suffering from a variety of ills requiring our help. Here's a partial list:
- 37 year-old woman post kidney transplant
- 9 month old boy needing transfusions after heart surgery
- 67 year-old woman with gastro-intestinal blockage
- 20-month old boy with leukemia needing platelets to stop bleeding
If there were better alternatives readily available I wouldn't be sitting here for hours with a large needle stuck in my arm, and the Red Cross would find something better to do with its time and money. But even here, in a first world country in a relatively affluent area, blood and blood products are still desperately needed. According to the Red Cross: only 3% of the population will ever donate blood, but 97% will need blood at some point in their lives. What would you have us tell the people in the list above? "Sorry, we're shutting down your supply of platelets and whole blood because we've learned from the WT that saving your life by these means is harmful and against God's law"? I don't think so: do you?
According to the United Kingdom's National Blood Service:
"Some medical treatments or operations cannot be safely carried out without a blood transfusion being given."
Their site also lists the real safety statistics involving blood:
"Compared to other everyday risks the likelihood of getting an infection from a blood transfusion is very low. All blood donors are unpaid volunteers. They are very carefully selected and tested to make sure that the blood they donate is as safe as possible.
"The risk of getting hepatitis from a blood transfusion is currently about 1 in 500,000 for hepatitis B and 1 in 30 million for hepatitis C. The chance of getting HIV or HTLV infection is about 1 in 5 million. Although the risk of getting variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (vCJD) from a blood transfusion is probably low with a single blood transfusion, the risk of any infection will increase with additional blood transfusions. Each year, approximately 2 million units of blood are transfused in England and there have been just a handful of cases where patients are known to have become infected with vCJD from a blood transfusion."
This is pretty refreshing after years of listening to the WT's hysteria -- the same organization that brought us the "$1.00 Cancer Cure", called vaccinations "filthy pus", published annual phrenology readings of Russells' head, and fell for (and advertised) just about every quack medical product ever devised back when the Awake! was The Golden Age. (People who research quackery often use The Golden Age as a resource to find the medical scams that were being palmed off on a gullible public in those days.) To put it mildly: the WT has not proven to be a reliable source of medical advice. Why would I ever trust their scare tactics regarding blood transfusions when they have been proven wrong on just about every medical opinion they've ever held?
What is relevant is that we can agree that in the past--before there were bloodless surgeries available--Jehovah's Witness children who needed blood died while non-Witness children lived (see the May 22, 1994 Awake! article "Youths Who Put God First".) They died for the same reason those needing organ transplants died: as you said, "some Bethelite decided to make a rule". What galls me about this is that you characterize it as "quibbling"! Search the Internet and read about Gary Busselman a man who lost his wife Delores (age 26) when she refused an organ transplant back in 1971 because a Bethelite made a rule. Read the letter on my site I received from Mary: a mother who lost her 15 year-old son due to a Bethelite deciding to make a rule. Tell them that they're "quibbling"!
What are we going to tell her: "Oh, well, at least your son died knowing God's name is 'Jehovah' and that he's not a trinity". Now, when it comes to quibbling, I think that arguing about what God's name is or how many "persons" he is would have to take the grand prize; it's right up there with how many angels can stand on the head of a pin (a favorite quibble in the Middle Ages).
How does it make you a better person, or the world a better place if you happen to believe God's name is Jehovah and that he's not a trinity? What if your neighbor thinks God's name is Allah, or Poindexter? What if I think God is a duality or a quadinity? What difference does it make? What value does it have? These are just things men have imagined about the unknowable and have convinced themselves are true. The Governing Body has no more clue as to what God's name is (or even if such a being exists) as do you or I, or "Moses", or the kid next door. No one knows more about the unknowable than anyone else. And God, by definition, is unknowable.
But here's something we do know: teachings that cause innocent, trusting people to die are evil.
Your idea that the "core truths" somehow redeem the organization is examined in part 2 of my 3-part article Why Not be a Jehovah's Witness.
A comprehensive theological argument against the banning of blood transfusions is to be found in my novel Layers of Truth. Or you can take the blood course online.
I don't know anything about your "numbers". The last I heard your growth had slowed and Islam was the fastest growing religion. (See this article about such claims. )Just because a religion might be increasing in numbers does that make it true, or even an overall force for good in the world? Of course not. You know the scripture about false prophets misleading many in your "last days" -- now who could that possibly be referring to? Well, who claims to be "God's prophet" and who has issued more false prophecies than any other religion on Earth? You know the answer as well as I do.
The "preaching work" might be "getting done" but is that a good thing? Not if part of that message potentially leads to the death of children and the loss of reasoning and freedom amongst those who get sucked in. It's difficult for me to fathom how a college-educated person could remain in these beliefs and even attempt to defend them -- until I remember the constant brainwashing put out by the Watchtower (under the euphemism of "preaching and teaching") which promotes their organization as the thing which must be "obeyed" in order to escape the wrath of their god.
Why are you letting these idiots control your life, tell you what to think, and what to do -- when you know they are dishonest, are incapable of recognizing the simplest facts, and that their stupidity leads to the death of their trusting followers? Why would you "go out in service" and try to persuade others to become members of such a group?
Please know that you can believe that God is not a trinity and there is no hell, etc., without having to surrender your life and reasoning to an organization that has proven itself unworthy of such mindless devotion.
What would be the last straw for you? What would ever convince you that the Watchtower is not God's organization on Earth? Their lies -- stubbornly clung to despite the facts -- result in the death of children: a fact they boast about in their publications! That's more than enough for me. But if that's not enough to convice you -- if you can use WT reasoning to excuse even that -- then I don't think anything ever could convince you, and you're not someone I can hope to reach. Further conversation is pointless.
Come back to the real world, John; we need intelligent, caring people out here.
Or, to put it in Witness-speak: Get out of her, lest you share in her blood-guilt.
--Steve
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